How did Round Up come about?

Dave Sylvestre: Well, we were just talking we (Rebecca Diedrichs) can’t really remember. I remember going to the very first meeting and there’s a handful of people. I think there was a call for submissions or possibly a poster saying that we’re putting together a kind of a group show to tour Studios and that’s what it was. It was basically a one day or weekend event where artists would open their Studios to the public. So there is several maps that would kind of be, you know, if you imagine like a Google map that pinpoints of the various studios in the artists that were showing and because a lot of people were living in their studios, it was kind of an interesting thing, you’re kind of opening your living space to the world, even though you know, they weren’t zoned for that reason. So you’d probably try to hide your battery or futon or whatever and then let people come in and see your place. 

So that was the idea of opening up your Studios. So where did that come from? And how did that come about because that’s an interesting idea.

Rebecca Diedrichs: So this where I think we have to credit Diane Gagne and Mario Scatalloni because I have a feeling that this was something they started thinking up – and they were York people right – Where they up at York? And I think they started thinking of it and somehow it got around to maybe it was through people who were all working in the galleries so don’t really remember. As Dave Says, I remember meeting is coming together for meetings in different people’s apartments and stuff and brainstorming about how to do this. The question of why I think is because people just don’t have access to galleries in a quick and dirty way but I think too people wanted to know who’s out there who’s making work. How do we figure that out? How do we get to see them all?

Dave Sylvestre: Yeah. I can remember a few of the initial meetings where there was a few people saying well, we should curate it, we shouldn’t have this and that but then it kind of blew open and it became massive so that you know, this was a big event where I seem to remember, you know, 60 or 70…

Rebecca Diedrichs: Oh easily the first one, I think was something like 60 or 70, but the second time we did it was over 200 people, right? So 200 Studios.

Dave Sylvestre: Then it could be really unique – and it was you know, it was next to impossible to show here as I remembered it. I moved here from Calgary in 84 and I would apply, you know to Arc I would apply to YYZ, you know and and there was just so many submissions that you know, you just get rejection letter after rejection letter. I thought something’s gotta happen. So it was really a dam burst and it’s funny in doing the interviews for this (Collective City) and finding out that so many people said that was my first thing (Round Up) . It was kind of you know, Instrumental in getting things started, it kind of kick-started a few things.

What were the years Round Up ran?

Rebecca Diedrichs: So 89-90, 90-91. There’s only two right – it got too, it was unwieldly once we done it the second time. Yeah, it was it was it was fairly big.

Dave Sylvestre: We did, as mentioned, did a fairly elaborate map and then did a catalog and when we met about two three weeks ago to kind of reminisce about it I remember Becky did all the the photographs for the catalog and this is pre-digital age. So she would go around to all the Studio’s take pictures. Take the rolls to Blacks (Photo’s) paste it up pre photoshop. What you what you see is what you get.

Rebecca Diedrichs: It was with Heather Cameron, actually who was also in the Place & Show Collective, right? And we one of us had a car – I can’t remember which of us and we actually felt like we were Starsky and Hutch because we had the camera gear, we have one light and one person would drive and we’d be like, OK, GO, GO, GO GO, because we had so many studios to do and we’d literally go in there and bracket the shots and make sure you write down the name (of the artist) and to the next studio and the next. I think we did it in two days. Yeah all those Studios. And as you say we rushed them into Blacks, make sure the prints came out and the photos, are not, they’re not great in the catalog but they’re a great record of what people were doing. And when you look through that catalog and you see who’s in then, I mean the list is pretty remarkable. It’s quite a document.

How did you actually structure it? Because there was a number of you administrating this how did it actually work? How artists apply? How did how did the whole thing actually operate?

Dave Sylvestre: It’s a little bit different in the sense that you know, if you if you were going to open your studio to invite the public in you know, you were responsible, I mean in a lot of cases it was it’s sort of a work in progress. You might have all the stuff you use to make your work, materials and whatever it is. So it was up to you. There was no, you know, we’re not curating what pieces of work you put in there…

Rebecca Diedrichs: And there were no blanket security or insurance issue things either. So, you know, it’s you’re opening your studio. You make it safe for people to come and go…

Dave Sylvestre: You open your studio and I remember people were polite people were really, you know, careful and appreciative but I remember one guy came in. I think he was on LSD, you know, he walks in and he’s like he’s he’s eating my food and I’m like, whoa, so, you know, but but for the large part, you know, it was you it all went really smoothly and thank God for that.

But the people who actually administered it, what did you have to do in order to make this happen?

Rebecca Diedrichs: Well, we would have collected all the names of people and there was no, we didn’t have computer technology at all. Then there’s no email at all that which is really amazing. So it would have been all by telephone or by people sending us stuff in the mail to say I want to be in Round Up. Here’s my address. This is the kind of work I’m going to do and that’s it. We would’ve just asked for their name their address.

Dave Sylvestre: Yeah, and I think a signed agreement which was sort of like, you know, here’s my contract. I will open my studio between 10:30 am. and 6 p.m. Both Saturday and Sunday and then a few of us would go around and and just sort of you know, check on things and you know, ask people how it’s going and what not.

Rebecca Diedrichs: And prior to that we got the funding for, we got some funding for the map and the next time we got more funding so we could do a catalog but the maps were distributed to in all of the galleries all over the city and the schools, so they were and they were nice little compact of the maps that fold it out quite it’s quite expansively but it gave you enough to go on and you could pedal or walk or drive or whatever to different places. I mean, lots of people are clumped in different buildings.

Dave Sylvestre: Yeah, I was going to say it’s a real sort of interesting kind of thing, you could see these clusters. So, you know, you’d see some stuff north of Bloor, but for the most part it was all down in you know, Liberty Village.

Rebecca Diedrichs: Yeah Hanna Street. Yeah huge that wasn’t the one of the most amazing studio buildings.

Dave Sylvestre: Yeah where you’d get maybe, you know, like 14 15 Studios and then around Liberty the same sort of thing. So what is now kind of condo land and there were tons and tons of studios and some of them kind of not necessarily the easiest to access know. I remember Hanna being kind of you know, it was a massive building and people used to ride motorcycles up and down and you know to get to it was a little bit, you know, especially if your going at night might look a little bit sketchy

Rebecca Diedrichs: Same with up at Dupont and at Lansdowne.That big building there. That’s a real Labyrinth you came in one entrance and you have to kind of make your way around to try to figure out where the studios are. I’m sure I’m sure probably turn some people off.

Dave Sylvestre: Well, I think it was pretty rough there back then, yeah.

What were your reaction to that first year and how did you respond to the reaction you got from it?

Dave Sylvestre: Kind of relieved that it went off without any real problems. But also it kind of validated I think for a lot of people that you’d talk to, who were sort of like wondering “when am I ever going to get to show here”that there was a lot of us who’s quite clearly, a lot of people whohad no where to show. There just wasn’t enough showing space and this was a pretty you know, it’s a good solution for it, a way of kick-starting things.

Rebecca Diedrichs: I wonder if – I mean this would be something that’s come up in the other (Collective City) interviews, but I wonder if it instigated the start of the different collectives – with people seeing people’s work saying, oh that work is kind of like what I’m doing, but because often collectives like some of them start from people knowing each other like in my case being it was because we were all at OCA together and I know that there’s a couple others like were NetherMind was lots of York grads. I’m not sure about this… Maybe this is something you know, David.

Dave Sylvestre: I’m not so sure about that. But I do remember seeing notable artists who are kind of a generation, you know who were showing, you know showing up in my studio and then and gallery owners or dealers and whatnot. So it raised the visibility of everybody and then you got some really good feedback and you know. Yeah, you know what it made me think of is about maybe seven or eight years later the Toronto outdoor exhibit started and I thought oh we did this before – it was kind of like a real open call and you get tons of people and that turned into like a business. I mean, if you know, then it cost money to get into it and you know, it didn’t cost anything to be in Round Up as far as I can remember.

Rebecca Diedrichs: I don’t think you paid any kind of fee or anything.

Dave Sylvestre: I thought the best thing about it was to open it up, you know as wide as possible. It meant that you know sometimes the work was you know a varying quality, but the spirit of it was was awesome.

I remember that the art critics for the newspapers would also go around and comment on what they saw at Round Up. Now just so we get a straight – was there only two Round Up’s or were there three?

Rebecca Diedrichs: I only have documentation for two so there was only two.

Did you get a lot of feedback from the artists? How is that in terms of recognition for what you did?

Dave Sylvestre: Yeah, you did. I mean you got to see the size of the people, of the community that was kind of our community that was under represented ,that was quite big and we had some pretty very well attended fundraisers…

Rebecca Diedrichs:We had some great fundraisers.

Dave Sylvestre: Yeah where they’re like big parties. So so, you know, I think it was it was great. I think most people felt the way I did , like, “okay now something’s happening”. You know, it was the very first showing opportunity and it wasn’t long after that that you know things started happening for a lot of people you know, it was it was just needed a little push.

Where were the parties?

Rebecca Diedrichs: The Great Hall. Yeah 1087 Queen Sy. W.. That was a big, big party. Yeah. And as I recall, we actually all made the food for that. Yes, we made, I remember on my hot plates in my studio making vats of chili, vegetarian chili and then somehow getting them there, you know in someone’s car.

Dave Sylvestre: Yeah, and there we had bands…

Rebecca Diedrichs…and then we had bands and the maps were given out, 13 Engines played Shadowy Men On A Shadowy Planet. Yeah, that was a huge party and very ,very successful.

How did you get funding for Round Up?

Dave Sylvestre: We got some grant money, but the the parties and we’re pretty significant source…

Rebecca Diedrichs:…they would have been ticket events ticket events.

Dave Sylvestre: And then you’re you know, you’re getting all your beer money. And you know, they were very well attended. It was like lined up out the door.

Rebecca Diedrichs: We would have gotten and I believe we actually got beer donated, I recall. Yeah and the Toronto Arts Council funded us, right? I don’t know if OAC did or not…

Dave Sylvestre: No, the Toronto Arts Council for sure.

Rebecca Diedrichs: But we what we needed the money for was to produce the maps because we weren’t getting any fees or anything ourselves. None of the artists were getting fees so it would have been to produce the maps do PR and then second year make the catalog. Yeah, which really was bare bones, it was bare bones production but it had two decent essays, three, your introduction Melanie Ward and Catherine Crowston who both did great essays and they were the all the photographs and the list of all the artists. So I mean it was as I said bare bones, but had a colour cover.

Dave Sylvestre: My memories of it was it was a lot of work, but it wasn’t that much money required to do, comparatively, but it was a lot more leg work. It was just it was sweat labor.

Did you guys feel like you were creating a whole new Toronto art scene from one that was already established? Or giving birth to one?

Dave Sylvestre: I think it felt kind of temporal. I don’t know that any of us thought that this could be something that we’d want to do, you know as a tradition and I think it was a launch pad in a way and it was a successful one in that sense.

Rebecca Diedrichs: And it was a way of it was kind of like a debutante ball introducing yourself to everyone put on your best dress. Your best art. Open up the studio tidy it up.

So you probably didn’t realize the ripple effect that it would have?

Dave Sylvestre: Roundup was the was one of the very first of a kind of collective art visual art experience for the generation that would be you could say it was like the tail end of the baby boom. So it wasn’t really sort of you know, sort of the 70s, 80s. It was more kind of the 80s, 90s and if you look through the catalog you’ll see a lot of people who ended up in you know, subsequent collectives. And it seems like humble beginnings because it was you know, it wasn’t, it didn’t seem like any big whoop to us. Like people were gonna say “were you in that?”.

Why did Round Up end?

Rebecca Diedrichs: Yeah,it was the amount of work. It was just so much work and everyone, well it was a fairly well weighted in terms of workload people were doing. I mean there was quite a big committee as I recall. The back of the catalog there’s quite a long list there, people who are specialized in design and then there were the organizing people, grant writing people, people who could help, you know, people who design skills and all that. So but it took a big team and keep the team of, and I’m going to say 10 to 12, was it that big? together and committed to it that’s a pretty big challenge, I think.

Dave Sylvestre:Yeah anytime you get over five, six people it becomes unwieldly.

How do you view what was happening back then and and how you view what’s actually happening now in the Toronto arts scene?

Dave Sylvestre: I think that Round Up I think the feeling was not only that there is scarcity of places to show but I think that a lot of people didn’t really identify with the work that was being shown in the mandates of the some of the places whether they were commercial galleries or parallel galleries. So it kind of opened it up in a big way and again it it continued to become through the 90s with collectives it continues to become more diverse in a whole bunch of different ways where you’d get just real diverse collectives or ones that are installation based or pure painting based or a mixture of both and that hadn’t really existed in a way so it sort of broadened.

Rebecca Diedrichs: And I think it was that idea to have somehow, establishing, giving yourself a place in the community. So that was part of that too, was again, who do I talk to, who do I communicate with about what I want to do? Well, this is one way – we can put on this big, we can gather everyone together and see what happens and open up the dialogue, open up the conversation.

Do you have any idea how popular it was with the public?

Dave Sylvestre: I seem to remember the public loving it. Yeah, because you know so much of what is engaging about artwork often, is finding out the back story to it and to be able to see the space where it was created was, you know is a story unto itself and so people got to see, well this is where you make things and you know your kind of a host, you’re bringing people into your place and you’re saying this is my work and they get to see how you live and it was just kinda human and it was really you know, a little bit rough around the edges in the sense that, a lot of people working artists, they didn’t have these sort of fancy loft spaces…

Rebecca Diedrichs: Like, you know and not even separate from your living space. So as you said earlier, you’re literally like everything is right there, you know, your coffee cups are in the sink and you know, you forgot to put the cat dish away and…

Dave Sylvestre: Yeah, I mean, you know, it’s not like a like a movie, like a Mickey Rourke Studio you know.

Rebecca Diedrichs: I think it’s actually no, it’s no accident that a lot of museums will a quite often put on a section of a room that will be a reenactment of an artist studio because we have that fascination with where it comes from and I was thinking earlier about just in terms of that sort of favorite story your favorite event around any of these exhibitions that projects, the process piece is so important that at least for the people who are participating, but I think also for the audience – is becoming part of a process of something ongoing it’s not just a painting on a wall that sits over there static. It’s actually something going on. It’s all happening right here.

Dave Sylvestre: Yeah, that’s so often you’d see sketches you’d see drawings. You can see prototypes you’d see all kinds of you know, the the manifestation of thought that gets you to the final sort of piece and those are props for the storytelling. I was thinking that’s a kind of a rare thing to be able to get access to.

I guess you’re actually allowing the public to get access to the artist themselves.

Dave Sylvestre: Yeah, I remember, well, this is the oldest thing though is that I remember going on a Saturday to an opening of Patterson Ewan and I was looking at his work and then I saw him and he was in the kitchen and every once in a while they bring him out. It’s sort of like here’s a collector so you’d have to talk about the work but that’s part of the that’s part of the romance of it. Right? So if you want to sell some work, or if you want someone to get engaged, you know, you gotta get out there and be accessible and talk about that and that was part of the deal. I suppose we could have people come in and just sort of ignore them, but I don’t really seem to remember much of that happening. So it was sort of generous in that way and I think it was good for people to be able to talk about work because again, it’s like the dam is broken open, you know, finally people are coming to look at what you’re doing.

Rebecca Diedrichs: Well and again, you’re not in a gallery setting where you got a gallery attendant that you negotiate with or even the dealer sitting there who might be more intimidating. Then having a chance to just walk into someone’s place and ask them questions. I suppose at times during the Roundup think studios would get really packed with people but it flowed pretty easily like people didn’t sort of stay for hours or anything they’d come in have a chat and move on. So you were conversing with lots of people during the course of the day or the evening.